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1142025-07-05T12:58:48 <sipa> phantomcircuit: "need" is a big word, but it would break assumptions that peers make
1152025-07-05T13:09:06 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] maflcko opened pull request #32880: ci: Avoid cd into build dir (master...2507-ci-less-cd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32880
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1422025-07-05T15:31:05 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] maflcko opened pull request #32881: Turn rpcauth.py test into functional test (master...2507-test-rpcauth-fun) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32881
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1512025-07-05T16:13:23 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] HowHsu opened pull request #32882: index: remove unnecessary locater cleaning in BaseIndex::Init() (master...read-best-block) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32882
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1742025-07-05T18:00:50 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] tdb3 closed pull request #30713: rpc: add `relevant_blocks` to `scanblocks status` (master...relevant_blocks_in_scanblocks_status) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30713
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1942025-07-05T20:08:21 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vtjl10 opened pull request #32883: Rename `shuffled_indeces` to `shuffled_indices` in `rpc_packages.py` (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32883
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2132025-07-05T21:59:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa: the only thing i can think of like that is the og ibd algorithm, is that what you're thinking of?
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2232025-07-05T22:30:25 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'm more thinking of all our tests which would break, by sending a ping and waitong for a pokg to know a node is done processing
2242025-07-05T22:31:22 <sipa> (not that that is a problem, but it's an indication of the kind of things can clearly be relied upon right now by peers)
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2262025-07-05T22:49:44 <sipa> lacking a formal specification of what the expected behavior of the P2P protocol is, i don't think this is something that can just be changed (at least not without a way to negotiate it as an optional thing)
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2282025-07-05T22:57:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa: what response do we even have for the block message?
2292025-07-05T22:57:21 <sipa> phantomcircuit: none, but responses to later messages can depend on it
2302025-07-05T22:57:42 <phantomcircuit> i can definitely see changing the orderr breaking a bunch of the functional networking tests
2312025-07-05T22:57:49 <phantomcircuit> like basically all of them right
2322025-07-05T22:57:53 <sipa> yes
2332025-07-05T22:58:52 <phantomcircuit> so in theory i could also just have multiptl message handling threads and try to reduce the lock contention on cs main by finding individual things locking it that don't need to
2342025-07-05T22:59:18 <phantomcircuit> like im pretty sure i can remove the lock from IsInitialBlockDownload with a handful of atomics
2352025-07-05T23:01:06 <phantomcircuit> tthe alternative is to dilligently identify all of the actual data in memory and reduce the scope of locks while ensuring no lock orderring issues... which um sounds harder
2362025-07-05T23:02:32 <sipa> lock annotations are pretty good these days, you'll have more effort convincing clang's analyser that a change is safe, than accidentally introducing a lock ordering issue
2372025-07-05T23:02:54 <sipa> but really, i think the way to go is a validation queue for tx/blocks like i suggested earlier
2382025-07-05T23:03:26 <sipa> that won't on itself give you more parallellism, but it means all effort to improve that will be localized in validation code, not spread everywhere
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2412025-07-05T23:07:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa: without a specific path to parallelism by doing that im afaird it'll make things more complicated, but not actually any faster
2422025-07-05T23:08:52 <sipa> well, yes, obviously
2432025-07-05T23:09:03 <sipa> but right now i don't even want to try reasoning about it
2442025-07-05T23:09:53 <sipa> at least things like validating multiple transactions in parallel seems pretty doable
2452025-07-05T23:10:09 <sipa> (individual transactions, received from different peers)
2462025-07-05T23:11:02 <sipa> and it would mean without any further changes that for example we can process and respond to ADDR or PING messages even while a block is being processed
2472025-07-05T23:12:02 <sipa> i'm considering working on something like this post-clustermempool, fwiw
2482025-07-05T23:12:28 <phantomcircuit> sipa: so that's what i thought to but there's enough random other things that acquire cs_main that the msghand thread ends up waiting until the blocks processed
2492025-07-05T23:12:53 <phantomcircuit> IsInitialBlockDownload being the one that im 99% sure can be lock free
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2512025-07-05T23:14:42 <sipa> well cs_main would move to validation, and net_processing would become independent of ot
2522025-07-05T23:14:59 <phantomcircuit> to test this i put ActivateBestChain in a background thread and ran it on a 10 minute timer, while it's running absolutely nothing will happen because it's holding the chainstate lock and cs_main
2532025-07-05T23:15:49 <phantomcircuit> yeah but doing that for the things that wouldn't be put in a queue seems like the first step
2542025-07-05T23:16:04 <sipa> anything that needs validation-related data structures (chainstate, headers, mempool, block tree) would need to go through the queue mechanism, effectively making it async, and letting validation decide when to process them
2552025-07-05T23:16:25 <phantomcircuit> we're accessing chainstate in places where the result can be pretty fuzzy, like IsIBD doesn't need to be absolutely correct, it's already an approximation
2562025-07-05T23:16:44 <sipa> right
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2582025-07-05T23:18:08 <sipa> my goal is reducing latency much more than increasing throughput, but i think it's a good step towards that too
2592025-07-05T23:19:14 <phantomcircuit> sipa: so do you think looking for things accessing chainstate which don't really need it is a good first step here?
2602025-07-05T23:19:38 <phantomcircuit> seems like ehem *atomic* improvements
2612025-07-05T23:20:47 <sipa> yeah, i don't think that on itself will gain us much
2622025-07-05T23:20:57 <sipa> but it'll be necessary anyway
2632025-07-05T23:21:24 <phantomcircuit> sipa: yeah that's what im thinking
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