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172025-09-19T02:47:38 <_aj_> sipa: "time_since_last_send * R" not "average_time_between_sends * R" ?
182025-09-19T02:51:48 <_aj_> sipa: if we're happy to increase our INVs quadratically when bursts come in, why not just make the formula be min(1000, inv_to_send.size()) and always send as much as we can? (i think the answer is "to smooth out bursts of low-fee txs so as to avoid wasting the network's validation and relay resources"; and i'm not sure a quadratic increase during bursts fits well with that?)
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202025-09-19T03:02:10 <sipa> _aj_: yeah, time since send, not avg time between sends
212025-09-19T03:03:02 <sipa> and the quadratic term is essentially the "give up on trying to smooth out if it causes too much backlkg"
222025-09-19T03:04:42 <_aj_> "the reason the current formula is so bad" -- i don't think it's "so bad"; i'm only seeing occassional queues of 5000 txs from peers that don't seem to be announcing txs back to me. the original issue was we apparently had a 6h period of sustained 13.9 tx/s announcements of BRC20 things, and i think i was seeing 25k to 60k+ queued txs by some peers; current behaviour is much milder.
232025-09-19T03:07:23 <sipa> yeah, i don't think it's bad in practice - but in theory it can grow very large still i think (but far less than before the /1000*5 term got added)
242025-09-19T03:10:02 <sipa> _aj_: the effect of the quadratic is really "if you're within x% of max queue size, send x% of the actual queue"
252025-09-19T03:10:16 <_aj_> yeah; with normal traffic (<7tx/s) any backlog gets cleared in ~15 minutes
262025-09-19T03:10:56 <_aj_> (down to 1000 entries, anyway)
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352025-09-19T05:12:43 <_aj_> hm, some background discussion; https://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2016-04-11.html#l-240 and #7840
362025-09-19T05:12:46 <corebot`> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7840 | Several performance and privacy improvements to inv/mempool handling by sipa · Pull Request #7840 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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502025-09-19T06:15:18 <_aj_> sipa: hmm, what if we tracked the exponential rolling average of relayed txs; `past_avg /= pow(2.0, timedelta/5m); ++past_avg;` in RelayTransaction() or so. could then make our broadcast target be min(queue, max(TARGET_RATE, past_avg), 1000)
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762025-09-19T10:15:33 <fanquake> Does anyone want to look at #32097? We are going to ship Linux GUI binaries that aren't working properly (on modern desktops), and already are shipping GUI binaries that may/may not work
772025-09-19T10:15:35 <corebot`> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/32097 | Linux download needs installation instructions · Issue #32097 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
782025-09-19T10:15:40 <fanquake> We don't have any instructions for end users, to resolve these issues
792025-09-19T10:15:50 <fanquake> End users are already running into these issues: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33432
802025-09-19T10:16:25 <fanquake> Ideally we'd be shipping GUI bins that didn't require users to manually install missing dependencies
812025-09-19T10:17:05 <fanquake> Barring that, some instruction on what to do when the GUI doesn't run would probably be useful
822025-09-19T10:19:35 <fanquake> Taking this to the extreme, some obscure missing GUI dependency seems like a great way to compromise non-technical users
832025-09-19T10:19:41 <fanquake> Similar to the "download this .dll to fix your computer" nonsense you see on Windows
842025-09-19T10:21:07 <fanquake> i.e you can download this (definitely not compromised to extract your private keys) libxcb-cursor0.so to fix your bitcoin-qt installation
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882025-09-19T11:13:26 <sipa> _aj_: i think an approach like that may work, but what is the advantage of having a separate decaying average for incoming rate, over effectively.using the queue size itself as that metric?
892025-09-19T11:14:11 <sipa> fanquake: that would be nice to address
902025-09-19T11:15:42 <_aj_> sipa: making this up as i go along, but: smooths out bursts more, and keeps the queue size small during sustained load that's above our expected average?
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1042025-09-19T11:30:15 <sipa> _aj_: right that has a similar effect to having a timeout on each tx, and once hit
1052025-09-19T11:30:21 <sipa> always sending it
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1072025-09-19T11:30:33 <sipa> but not as abrupt a change between timed out and not
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1352025-09-19T11:36:48 <sipa> _aj_: what about: {past_avg += 1} on every insertion into the queue, and on every send {to_send = min(queue, max(TARGET_RATE, past_avg * (1 - Q))); past_avg = (past_avg - to_send) * Q}, where Q = exp(-TIMEOUT/AVG_SEND_INTERVAL)
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1382025-09-19T11:39:27 <sipa> this way (even with TARGET_RATE=0), every insertion into the queue has an effect on to_send, summed over time, that adds up to 1
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1502025-09-19T11:41:06 <sipa> if we're going to add a min(..., 1000), i think we should instead just be dropping things when the queue grows too big - that's preferable to growing our own queue unboundedly
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1522025-09-19T11:42:03 <_aj_> would dropping from the queue imply `past_avg -= 1` ?
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1542025-09-19T11:43:00 <_aj_> going above some value would just mean the receiver is dropping them instead of us; that's probably easier implementation-wise :-/
1552025-09-19T11:43:09 <sipa> hmm, it should correspond to past_avg -= exp(-time_in_queue / AVG_SEND_INTERVAL)
1562025-09-19T11:43:29 <sipa> but we don't know how long something has been in the queue when it gets dropped i guess
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1582025-09-19T11:44:06 <_aj_> yeah, dropping the max(,1000) seems a lot easier than dropping actual txs
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1602025-09-19T11:47:09 <sipa> we do have better rate limiting on the receiver side than we did when this mechanism was first introduced
1612025-09-19T11:47:18 <sipa> (through the maximum queue size in txrequest)
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1632025-09-19T11:55:22 <_aj_> sipa: what's TIMEOUT ?
1642025-09-19T11:56:50 <sipa> _aj_: the time constant of decaying, so the time during which a fraction (1 - 1/e) of all transactions make it out
1652025-09-19T11:57:29 <sipa> could use Q = 1/2^(HALF_LIFE / AVG_SEND_INTERVAL) instead
1662025-09-19T11:59:13 <_aj_> hmm, okay, i guess i shouldn't be surprised that a steady-state simulation doesn't tell me much about how it might smooth out bursts
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1702025-09-19T12:03:27 <sipa> every burst should have an exponentially-decaying impuls response
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1732025-09-19T12:04:50 <_aj_> oh, should Q be scaled based on the actual time between invs? i seem to mostly be seeing max(to_send)=max(q)
1742025-09-19T12:05:52 <sipa> that'd be nicer, but i don't see how to guarantee summing up to 1 then
1752025-09-19T12:06:09 <_aj_> scale both (1-q) and q?
1762025-09-19T12:06:20 <_aj_> ie, (1-rq) and rq
1772025-09-19T12:06:42 <sipa> hmm, that may work
1782025-09-19T12:12:24 <sipa> my formula is wrong
1792025-09-19T12:12:34 <sipa> it should just be past_avg -= to_send
1802025-09-19T12:12:46 <sipa> .. and then past_avg just becomes equal to the queue size
1812025-09-19T12:14:26 <sipa> i.e., on every send, you send a fraction 1-Q of the remaining queue
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1842025-09-19T12:28:11 <_aj_> shouldn't you send a fraction Q of the remaining queue?
1852025-09-19T12:28:45 <_aj_> no that's much worse
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1892025-09-19T12:37:51 <sipa> Q is the factor by which the queue shrinks every send
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1942025-09-19T12:58:16 <_aj_> hmm, Q=0.9 seems like it gives nice behaviour in my sim, though that implies TIMEOUT=0.5s which doesn't seem to make sense to me
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1982025-09-19T13:01:19 <dergoegge> #33252 looks ready for merge
1992025-09-19T13:01:22 <corebot`> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33252 | p2p: add `DifferenceFormatter` fuzz target and invariant check by frankomosh · Pull Request #33252 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2002025-09-19T13:03:16 <hebasto> is upgrade from v23.x to v30.0 supported?
2012025-09-19T13:06:10 <instagibbs> from a wallet perspective or?
2022025-09-19T13:06:39 <hebasto> from all angles, including a wallet one
2032025-09-19T13:07:26 <fanquake> What's the problem
2042025-09-19T13:08:05 <hebasto> fanquake: I'm reviewing #33422
2052025-09-19T13:08:07 <corebot`> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33422 | build: Remove lingering Windows registry & shortcuts (#32132 follow-up) by hodlinator · Pull Request #33422 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2062025-09-19T13:08:37 <hebasto> and pre-v24.x had more artifacts installed
2072025-09-19T13:09:10 <fanquake> that seems unrelated to fixing the breakage from #32132 ?
2082025-09-19T13:09:12 <corebot`> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/32132 | build: Remove bitness suffix from Windows installer by hebasto · Pull Request #32132 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2092025-09-19T13:09:55 <sipa> hebasto: which ones?
2102025-09-19T13:10:12 <hebasto> the entire `doc` folder
2112025-09-19T13:10:33 <sipa> and those don't get removed when uninstalling?
2122025-09-19T13:10:57 <sipa> ah, but this is about upgrading
2132025-09-19T13:11:12 <hebasto> during uninstalling - yes, but not during upgrade
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2152025-09-19T13:14:51 <sipa> _aj_: hmm, maybe my Q formula was wrong, Q=0.9 should correspond to a time constant of AVG_INTERVAL / -log(0.9)
2162025-09-19T13:14:53 <darosior> hebasto: can't these be optionally deleted for maximum compatibility? Like delete if present, but don't warn if not.
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2182025-09-19T13:15:28 <hebasto> darosior: that's my idea I'm working on now
2192025-09-19T13:17:43 <_aj_> sipa: Q=exp(-AVG/TIMEOUT) then i guess
2202025-09-19T13:19:36 <fanquake> Things that still need release notes written for: #32132 #29868 #30997
2212025-09-19T13:19:38 <corebot`> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/32132 | build: Remove bitness suffix from Windows installer by hebasto · Pull Request #32132 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2222025-09-19T13:19:41 <corebot`> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29868 | Reintroduce external signer support for Windows by hebasto · Pull Request #29868 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2232025-09-19T13:19:43 <corebot`> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/30997 | build: Switch to Qt 6 by hebasto · Pull Request #30997 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2242025-09-19T13:20:08 <_aj_> sipa: yeah, at first glance that seems nicely behaved to me
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2262025-09-19T13:24:13 <sipa> hebasto: but that's not a regression, we've never removed obsolete artifacts on upgrade?
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2282025-09-19T13:26:12 <sipa> _aj_: so, to_send = min(queue.size(), R*t + queue.size() * (1 - 2**(-t/H)))
2292025-09-19T13:26:39 <sipa> with R the target rate (tx/s), and H the half-life time (s)
2302025-09-19T13:27:00 <sipa> and t the time since last send
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2332025-09-19T13:28:21 <_aj_> sipa: seemed okayish even without that i think
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2352025-09-19T13:31:37 <sipa> could use t=AVG_INTERVAL instead of the actual time since send
2362025-09-19T13:32:31 <sipa> in either case, i think the average time spent in the queue will be log(2)*H
2372025-09-19T13:33:10 <sipa> no, H/log(2)
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3112025-09-19T17:41:27 <dzxzg> _aj_: sorry, "so bad" was a so bad choice of words and not correct, all I meant was that the current formula struggles struggles to reduce the queue size when transaction rates are above 7 tx/s
3122025-09-19T17:42:04 <dzxzg> and when that behavior is sustained without things calming down
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3142025-09-19T17:44:45 <dzxzg> I still kind of share the above question asked by _aj_ of why not just always send as much as we can? I'm not sure I understand this answer "to smooth out bursts of low-fee txs so as to avoid wasting the network's validation and relay resources" Isn't the mempool size limit / minrelayfee the mechanism used to prevent this kind of DoS, what is so bad about an attacker being able to get you to send big INV's to your peers?
3152025-09-19T17:44:48 <sipa> the current formula roughly corresponds to this new exponential one, but with H=138*AVG_INTERVAL
3162025-09-19T17:45:07 <sipa> which is a pretty long half life
3172025-09-19T17:47:37 <sipa> dzxzg: i think the idea is that when there are bursts, and we expect (part of) the network to not keep up, we slow things down a bit, to give better transactions that arrive *later* to jump the queue
3182025-09-19T17:48:32 <sipa> +a chance
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3292025-09-19T18:15:07 <dzxzg> sipa: OK, just reiterating: since we INV in sorted order of `CompareDepthAndScore()`, limiting INV sizes gives the best transactions a chance to skip to the front at every INV interval; this isn't really about the big INV being directly bad, but about the fact that transactions are requested in the order which they are announced, sending big INV's would create large transaction request queues that a high fee transaction that arrives one INV interval
3302025-09-19T18:15:09 <dzxzg> after a burst will have to wait behind.
3312025-09-19T18:16:22 <sipa> dzxzg: right!
3322025-09-19T18:16:46 <sipa> (and CompareDepthAndScore will become much better post-clustermempool too, because it can sort by chunk feerate rather than individual feerate)
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3352025-09-19T18:22:57 <instagibbs> Soon(TM)
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3672025-09-19T18:39:38 <sipa> instagibbs: any release now
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3742025-09-19T18:47:14 <dzxzg> sipa: Thanks, that makes sense, and for the other half: we care about the queue growing because it's a memory expense and the CPU expense of sorting the entire queue for each peer every INV, would it be cheaper to avoid the queue entirely and just iterate through the mempool in sorted order, skipping the tx'es that match m_tx_inventory_known_filter?
3752025-09-19T18:48:45 <instagibbs> ignoring runtime/etc you'd start advertising old txns to new peers which would be very different behavior
3762025-09-19T18:50:11 <sipa> dzxzg: i can't imagine that's faster unless you're close to having the entire mempool in the queue
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