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1552026-08-20T16:00:12 <stickies-v> #startmeeting
1562026-08-20T16:00:13 <corebot> stickies-v: Meeting started at 2026-08-20T16:00+0000
1572026-08-20T16:00:14 <corebot> stickies-v: Current chairs: stickies-v
1582026-08-20T16:00:15 <corebot> stickies-v: Useful commands: #action #info #idea #link #topic #motion #vote #close #endmeeting
1592026-08-20T16:00:17 <corebot> stickies-v: See also: https://hcoop-meetbot.readthedocs.io/en/stable/
1602026-08-20T16:00:18 <corebot> stickies-v: Participants should now identify themselves with '#here' or with an alias like '#here FirstLast'
1612026-08-20T16:00:19 <cfields> hi
1622026-08-20T16:00:20 <l0rinc> hi
1632026-08-20T16:00:24 <brunoerg> hi
1642026-08-20T16:00:26 <dzxzg> hi
1652026-08-20T16:00:27 <lightlike> hi
1662026-08-20T16:00:27 <sr_gi> hi
1672026-08-20T16:00:30 <hebasto> hi
1682026-08-20T16:00:32 <danielabrozzoni> hi
1692026-08-20T16:00:46 <stickies-v> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: _aj_ abubakarsadiq achow101 andrewtoth b10c brunoerg cfields danielabrozzoni darosior dergoegge dzxzg eugenesiegel fanquake fjahr furszy hebasto hodlinator instagibbs janb84 jarolrod johnny9dev jonatack josie jurraca kanzure kevkevin laanwj lightlike l0rinc maflcko marcofleon maxedw Murch pinheadmz provoostenator pseudoramdom ryanofsky sdaftuar sedited sipa sliv3r__ sr_gi stickies-v
1702026-08-20T16:00:46 <stickies-v> stringintech theStack vasild willcl-ark
1712026-08-20T16:00:50 <dergoegge> hi
1722026-08-20T16:00:52 <janb84> hi
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1742026-08-20T16:00:57 <stickies-v> There are no pre-proposed meeting topics this week. Any last minute ones to add?
1752026-08-20T16:01:03 <enochazariah> hi
1762026-08-20T16:01:30 <jonatack> hi
1772026-08-20T16:02:16 <johnny9dev> hi
1782026-08-20T16:02:28 <stickies-v> #topic Fuzzing WG Update (dergoegge, marcofleon)
1792026-08-20T16:02:44 <dergoegge> no update
1802026-08-20T16:02:46 <hodlinator> hi
1812026-08-20T16:02:58 <stickies-v> #topic Benchmarking WG Update (l0rinc, andrewtoth)
1822026-08-20T16:03:10 <l0rinc> #35889 was merged, is a similar follow-up #36032
1832026-08-20T16:03:14 <corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/35889 | rpc: avoid quadratic `gettxspendingprevout` work and preserve order by l0rinc · Pull Request #35889 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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1852026-08-20T16:03:15 <corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/36032 | rpc: avoid quadratic output lookups by l0rinc · Pull Request #36032 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1862026-08-20T16:03:20 <l0rinc> #35531 was also merged, #36002 is a follow-up to make it work for pruned nodes
1872026-08-20T16:03:25 <corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/35531 | txindex: hash keys and pack positions to reduce disk usage by andrewtoth · Pull Request #35531 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1882026-08-20T16:03:26 <corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/36002 | txindex: allow running in pruned mode by andrewtoth · Pull Request #36002 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1892026-08-20T16:03:47 <Murch[m]> hi
1902026-08-20T16:04:06 <l0rinc> and as mentioned before here, #36000 was opened since
1912026-08-20T16:04:09 <corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/36000 | validation: prefetch blocks while connecting by l0rinc · Pull Request #36000 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1922026-08-20T16:04:26 <l0rinc> it shines on HDDs especially
1932026-08-20T16:04:43 <sipa> hi
1942026-08-20T16:05:05 <hodlinator> nice!
1952026-08-20T16:05:23 <l0rinc> as mentioned here before, I'm investigating if we can extend it in a future PR with different thread context-independent `CheckBlock` validations
1962026-08-20T16:06:17 <l0rinc> sipa: you mentioned you were thinking of redesigning validation to be multitreaded, does this interfere with that?
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1982026-08-20T16:06:57 <stickies-v> wdym with "different thread context-independent `CheckBlock` validations"?
1992026-08-20T16:07:04 <sipa> l0rinc: not pursuing that right now
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2012026-08-20T16:07:47 <l0rinc> #36000 loads the blocks on different threads, so we can do some of the check (the ones that don't require extra connection context) there basically for free
2022026-08-20T16:07:49 <corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/36000 | validation: prefetch blocks while connecting by l0rinc · Pull Request #36000 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2032026-08-20T16:08:46 <l0rinc> that's it from me, thanks
2042026-08-20T16:08:47 <stickies-v> i see, just CheckBlock on multiple threads
2052026-08-20T16:08:49 *** maxedw_ is now known as maxedw
2062026-08-20T16:08:51 <l0rinc> yes
2072026-08-20T16:09:38 <stickies-v> #topic QML GUI WG Update (johnny9dev)
2082026-08-20T16:10:03 <johnny9dev> Started the first PR into the gui-qml "staging" branch at https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui-qml/pull/871
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2112026-08-20T16:11:08 <johnny9dev> The idea is to reconstruct the project with clean, mergable history using everything we've learned building the project. I need to work on the description still
2122026-08-20T16:12:12 <johnny9dev> The first 2 or 3 PR will likely be the most interesting as it will establish the core pieces (build, test, app lifecycle, and basic models)
2132026-08-20T16:14:02 <johnny9dev> so I think that is the plan to move towards getting this upstreamed. I will give these PRs plenty of time to get review from anyone that would potentially be interested in them
2142026-08-20T16:14:21 <johnny9dev> and i think now is a good time to get started
2152026-08-20T16:14:50 <johnny9dev> thats all for now
2162026-08-20T16:16:39 <stickies-v> #topic QA WG Update (brunoerg)
2172026-08-20T16:16:48 <brunoerg> no update
2182026-08-20T16:16:49 <cfields> proposed topic: potential feature-freeze exception for vectorized-chacha20
2192026-08-20T16:17:07 <stickies-v> #topic potential feature-freeze exception for vectorized-chacha20 (cfields)
2202026-08-20T16:17:28 <cfields> Very sorry for coming down to the wire here, but I'm curious if there's any appetite for an exception to the feature freeze for the vectorized chacha20 impl. It speeds up chacha20 by 1.5-3x (depending on platform/compiler), which is currently one of the most obvious pain points that shows up in flame graphs. I opened the PR months ago but I've been waiting to see what happened with upstream GCC (they're working on a substantial vectorization
2212026-08-20T16:17:28 <cfields> improvement that I assumed existed there while working on the PR. They've responded to my bug reports and I'm confident that the improvements will land, but haven't yet so I've decided to pivot). I'm working on a 128bit version (with l0rinc's help) that should perform better everywhere (though can be replaced with a better 256bit version once GCC gets its act together).
2222026-08-20T16:18:01 <cfields> I can commit to spending the next week working on it if there's interest in doing some focused review for v32.
2232026-08-20T16:18:07 <cfields> #34083
2242026-08-20T16:18:12 <corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/34083 | Add initial vectorized chacha20 implementation for 2-3x speedup by theuni · Pull Request #34083 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2252026-08-20T16:19:11 <sipa> next week is a bad time for me, i don't think i can commit to reviewing
2262026-08-20T16:19:24 <cfields> Nothing about it is urgent, it'd just be a nice speedup to ship for 32.
2272026-08-20T16:19:25 <l0rinc> It's not technically a feature, optimizations can be considered bugfixes - I can continue reviewing
2282026-08-20T16:19:53 <stickies-v> this looks like a cool improvement but i think it'd be equally cool to ship in 33?
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2302026-08-20T16:21:12 <cfields> Ok, wfm.
2312026-08-20T16:21:17 <l0rinc> I'm fine with both, we have a few other optimizations lined up anyway
2322026-08-20T16:22:16 <cfields> my fault for letting it sit there for so long.
2332026-08-20T16:22:30 <cfields> thanks. next topic :)
2342026-08-20T16:22:41 <stickies-v> so yeah, PSA: today is feature freeze
2352026-08-20T16:23:57 <stickies-v> should we talk a bit more about the co-authorship thing? i don't really care much about/for it but it seems to have come up a few times
2362026-08-20T16:24:45 <stickies-v> i think one group sees it as a tool to figure out who knows the most about a piece of code/is a person to talk to, another sees it as a way to give credit / say thank you
2372026-08-20T16:25:50 <stickies-v> oh and also it was mentioned as a way to express copyright
2382026-08-20T16:26:20 <sr_gi> Context?
2392026-08-20T16:26:57 <sipa> stickies-v: i was just comparing it with copyright as a bar
2402026-08-20T16:27:23 <stickies-v> sr_gi: https://bitcoin-irc.chaincode.com/bitcoin-core-dev/2026-08-18#1247067 (and following days)
2412026-08-20T16:27:24 <corebot> stickies-v: Error: That URL raised <HTTP Error 404: Not Found>
2422026-08-20T16:27:36 <sr_gi> :tumbsup:
2432026-08-20T16:27:38 <stickies-v> sipa: oh sorry, thanks for correcting
2442026-08-20T16:27:45 <sipa> i see it as a way of giving credit, and the bar that sounds reasonable for that seems to roughly match the point where someome could claim cooyright
2452026-08-20T16:27:54 <l0rinc> copyright is a bad example here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/35794#issuecomment-5072615311: Relevant U.S. Copyright Office guidance page 5
2462026-08-20T16:27:55 <l0rinc> > Applicants should not list an AI technology or the company that provided it as an author or co-author simply because they used it.
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2482026-08-20T16:29:22 <stickies-v> i use it when someone has contributed significant amounts of code, or in rare cases even when there was no/little code but a significant amount of architectural/design ideas that made me change course
2492026-08-20T16:29:23 <l0rinc> I also see it as giving credit to thank people who helped in shaping the outcome. A good recent example is https://x.com/Rob1Ham/status/2090271687090520435, Rob spent a lot of time and money on finding these, the least we can do is acknowledge his work by adding him as coauthor.
2502026-08-20T16:29:44 <sr_gi> I've been using it myself to give credit, specially if someone else has started the work and I've picked it up later, but the base is still theirs (e.g. Gleb with Erlay)
2512026-08-20T16:29:52 <sipa> How so? AI tools don't have copyright, and we don't add them as co-author.
2522026-08-20T16:30:06 <sipa> So the analogy seems to work.
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2542026-08-20T16:30:38 <l0rinc> AI is tool, we don't add clang-tidy as coauthor either
2552026-08-20T16:30:55 <l0rinc> we don't need to thank the AIs (yet)
2562026-08-20T16:31:01 <sipa> I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me.
2572026-08-20T16:31:16 <l0rinc> I think I'm mostly agreeing
2582026-08-20T16:31:34 <dzxzg> I don't know if it's something that needs to have well-defined meaning, everyone probably uses it a little bit differently, but all use it to mean some variation of "this person helped make this change." anything more detailed would probably need to be resolved case-by-case between the author and (alleged) coauthor
2592026-08-20T16:31:37 <sipa> My position is that you should add someone as co-author if they could reasonably claim copyright.
2602026-08-20T16:31:59 <stickies-v> sipa: that sounds like a good heuristic to me
2612026-08-20T16:32:00 <sipa> It's a way of giving credit, but for actually contributed code, not.ideas.
2622026-08-20T16:32:13 <sipa> It does not imply the co-author understands the entire commit.
2632026-08-20T16:32:23 <l0rinc> I am very much against copyright, so the analogy gives me the creeps
2642026-08-20T16:32:44 <johnny9dev> just an fyi, I'll be making heavy use of co-authored-by in the gui-qml staging commits as I will be compressing the large history into something digestible. The co-authors will all have been involved with constructing the relevant piece in some significant way. I will make sure I only co-author the person if I believe they can speak on the functionality introduced.
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2662026-08-20T16:33:15 <l0rinc> is there a drawback to thanking people this way? What's the reason for the pushback exactly, that it's interpreted as distributing blame?
2672026-08-20T16:33:36 <shiza> hi
2682026-08-20T16:33:45 <shiza> I read it was something about grants
2692026-08-20T16:33:51 <sipa> l0rinc: ok, read it as "contributed a nontrivial piece of code of at least 5-10 lines" then
2702026-08-20T16:34:53 <l0rinc> what the reason for avoiding it for 1-5 lines? Is it a grant-thing as mentioned?
2712026-08-20T16:34:58 <sipa> l0rinc: i think it is weird to credit anyone who contributed ideas or helped with benchmarks or whatever, it's a collaborative project where everyone builds on one another. Authorship is a higher bar than that.
2722026-08-20T16:35:31 <sipa> Or suggested a few single line changes.
2732026-08-20T16:35:33 <fanquake> Yea. My pushback to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/36000#discussion_r3806893819, was that I'd barely looked at the code, so I didn't see why I'd be a co-author
2742026-08-20T16:35:48 <shiza> 2026-08-14 21:28:42 _aj_ are we using co-author to mean "wrote some of the code in this commit" or "contributed to the design" these days? i thought the former, but i've seen a few cases where the latter seems to be more in play? does the distinction matter for some people's grant KPIs?
2752026-08-20T16:35:51 <fanquake> I guess AJ was similarly confused here, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/35920#issuecomment-5273356225, about the request to be added as co-author
2762026-08-20T16:35:54 <sr_gi> l0rinc: reading the piece that stickies-v shared I see the issue as *not giving credit* instead of doing so, but I haven't read the whole history
2772026-08-20T16:35:56 <lightlike> different policies becomes a problem when people expect others to add them as coauthors (in the way they would do it to them), but the other person has a stricter policy and declines the request.
2782026-08-20T16:36:23 <fanquake> *about the request for someone else to be added as co-author
2792026-08-20T16:36:24 <l0rinc> "Authorship is a higher bar than that" - if someone contributed meaningfully I just add them as main author in that case, like: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/35752/commits
2802026-08-20T16:37:09 <sipa> you can contribute a meaningful amount of code without being the main author of a commit
2812026-08-20T16:38:32 <stickies-v> alright, i think we can wrap up on this
2822026-08-20T16:38:34 <stickies-v> anything else to discuss?
2832026-08-20T16:39:10 <l0rinc> thanks for the feedback
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2852026-08-20T16:40:32 <stickies-v> #endmeeting
2862026-08-20T16:40:33 <corebot> stickies-v: Meeting ended at 2026-08-20T16:40+0000
2872026-08-20T16:40:34 <corebot> stickies-v: Raw log: https://achow101.com/ircmeetings/2026/bitcoin-core-dev.2026-08-20_16_00.log.json
2882026-08-20T16:40:36 <corebot> stickies-v: Formatted log: https://achow101.com/ircmeetings/2026/bitcoin-core-dev.2026-08-20_16_00.log.html
2892026-08-20T16:40:37 <corebot> stickies-v: Minutes: https://achow101.com/ircmeetings/2026/bitcoin-core-dev.2026-08-20_16_00.html
2902026-08-20T16:42:38 <jonatack> I think co-authored-by credits are up to the PR author at their own discretion (I generally happily add anyone that contributed meaningfully), but not something that one would ask for.
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2922026-08-20T16:44:25 <tigerMafia> jonatack: +1
2932026-08-20T16:45:32 <jonatack> As for grant KPIs, I don't think those credits make any difference in the overall scheme of things. At least not when I review grant applications and reports. If you were already a reviewer of the PR in question, which would generally be the case, that's enough ;)
2942026-08-20T16:46:16 <lightlike> well, at least in the gray areas. In clear cases where someone actually wrote most of the code of a commit, I think they should at least be co-author, if not first author, and I wouldn't think it rude to ask for it.
2952026-08-20T16:46:28 <jonatack> I look much, more more at the quality/value of the review.
2962026-08-20T16:47:17 <jonatack> lightlike: agree, fair, I would think the author should add the credit without needing to be asked.
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2982026-08-20T16:49:57 <sr_gi> jonatack: But that is a bit of a contradiction right? If it's at the author's discretion but they should do so without being asked, it bears the question of what's the criteria
2992026-08-20T16:50:54 <sr_gi> To be clear, I do agree with it being the author's discretion, and I do think, by definition, that people should not expect parity
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3012026-08-20T16:53:55 <jonatack> sr_gi: yes. kindness and empathy, I guess. there isn't necessarily parity there either, and we all have our days :shrug:
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3112026-08-20T17:28:47 <Earnestly> Would it be desirable to apply standard optimisations to miniscript such as constant folding, dead code elimination, etc?
3122026-08-20T17:31:11 <Earnestly> (Including script)
3132026-08-20T17:39:27 <nkaretnikov> i donât understand why people are debating attribution. git has this built in. make people write their commits or submit patches and itâs clear which lines they added or not. if they cannot provide a patch or contributed in some other way, explicitly mention this in the commit message. seems like this solves all the concerns above.
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3322026-08-20T19:35:11 <Sjors[m]> <nkaretnikov> "i donât understand why people..." <- We are quite picky about each PR having a clear commit history, from a functionally perspective, not who wrote which line.
3332026-08-20T19:35:53 <Sjors[m]> So most feedback gets folded into an existing commit.
3342026-08-20T19:37:21 <Sjors[m]> For grants people are probably better off asking for a reference than to max out co-authorship.
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3492026-08-20T20:20:42 <achow101> the only times I add people as co-author is if they dropped a diff/suggestion that ends up being a majority of a commit. I don't think it makes sense to be adding coauthorship for line by line suggestions left during review.
3502026-08-20T20:21:08 <achow101> even when I take someone's commit wholesale into my pr, and make my own changes to it, i can't even be bothered to add myself as a co-author
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3562026-08-20T20:45:25 <afiore> Hi. Regarding the co-author discussion, I feel the need to speak up because of my experience with IP law and the USPTO (I'm not a lawyer).
3572026-08-20T20:45:33 <afiore> Re: #35794, "don't have to" doesn't equate to "will be protected in the future for past committed work" - i.e. ex post facto would likely not apply.
3582026-08-20T20:45:35 <corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/35794 | doc: Discourage adding AI agents as commit (co)-authors by sedited · Pull Request #35794 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3592026-08-20T20:45:46 <afiore> The document that l0rinc cites also states "Based on these developments, the Office concludes that public guidance is needed on the registration of works containing AI-generated content"; i.e., this guidance only applies to *registering* with the copyright the office - not defending unregistered copywritten work now or in the future.
3602026-08-20T20:46:01 <afiore> Further more, the way these LLMs are used are not "tools"; they are full-fledged systems of copyright violation concealed amongst layers of relatively good-faith use. For example, there is ongoing litigation that will set industry precedent, once all appeals are exhausted: https://githubcopilotlitigation.com/case-updates.html
3612026-08-20T20:46:16 <afiore> In my view, not only should co-authorship be included for future-proofing (it's literally not the commit author's intellectual product), but people should also re-think how they commit atomically so they don't need co-authorship to begin with.
3622026-08-20T20:46:29 <afiore> Further more, a friendly "shout-out" or acknowledgement of attribution doesn't equate to co-authorship. It seems, in most cases, people are conflating the two. I think descriptive acknowledgements are great and can be included in the log.
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3722026-08-20T21:48:55 <l0rinc> LLMs are tools, they can't hold the copyright, they shouldn't be added as coathors any more than my laptop being a coauthor.
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3742026-08-20T21:52:40 <l0rinc> While I'm not sure about the recent pushback against the co-author trailer in commit messages (I don't see how it's different from any other way of thanking people who helped), I understand if some people feel it puts pressure on the co-authors to review and take responsibility. So from now on I'll use it for non-trivial help only - though not just code: I don't see how explaining the problem in words is any different from doing it in code when it
3752026-08-20T21:52:40 <l0rinc> comes to shaping the final state.
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