19:00:01 <wumpus> #startmeeting
19:00:01 <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  3 19:00:01 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:00:01 <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:12 <achow101> hi
19:00:19 <hebasto> hi
19:00:19 <sipa> hi
19:00:30 <jonasschnelli> hi
19:00:31 <ariard_> hi
19:00:37 <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james
19:00:38 <wumpus> amiti fjahr jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55 elichai2
19:00:45 <gleb> hi
19:01:17 <wumpus> two proposed topics for this week: conducting a large scale usage survey (achow101), Bitcoin Design Community and efforts around the Bitcoin Core project (moneyball)
19:01:21 <amiti> hi
19:01:27 <wumpus> any last minute things anyone wants to discuss?
19:01:42 <aj> hi
19:01:43 <jonatack> hi
19:01:55 <moneyball> hi
19:02:11 <jeremyrubin> hi
19:02:14 <jb55> hi
19:02:28 <lightlike> hi
19:02:50 <ajonas> hi
19:03:15 <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
19:03:25 <wumpus> let's start with the usual then
19:03:38 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 10 blockers open, 1 bugfix, 2 chasing concept ACK
19:04:02 <hebasto> could I nominate #18710 for high-prio
19:04:05 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18710 | Add local thread pool to CCheckQueue by hebasto · Pull Request #18710 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:04:14 <wumpus> #19476 seems to be getting close to mergable
19:04:16 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19476 | rpc: Add mempoolchanges by promag · Pull Request #19476 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:04:33 <wumpus> sorry #19478
19:04:36 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19478 | Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #19478 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:04:59 <jeremyrubin> I pushed the fixes required :)
19:05:01 <sipsorcery> hi
19:05:13 <gleb> Can we add #19697 for now? It not that difficult, but already has 2 acks. Hopefully it enters & leaves high prio quickly :)
19:05:15 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19697 | Improvements on ADDR caching by naumenkogs · Pull Request #19697 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:05:56 <wumpus> hebasto: added
19:06:02 <hebasto> thanks
19:06:25 <meshcollider> hi
19:07:07 <wumpus> gleb: added
19:07:13 <gleb> thank you!
19:08:19 <wumpus> #19606 also seems close to be able to be merged, but as it is a pretty big backport it would be nice to get a third ack
19:08:22 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19606 | Backport wtxid relay to v0.20 by jnewbery · Pull Request #19606 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:08:41 <luke-jr> I didn't review the code, but it is in Knots v0.20.1
19:08:58 <wumpus> good, at least it already gets some testing then
19:09:06 <ajonas> is #14895 actually chasing concept ACK?
19:09:08 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14895 | Package relay design questions · Issue #14895 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:09:14 <luke-jr> (well, obviously I did *look at* the code, but not enough to ACK it)
19:09:27 <ajonas> I'm unclear what that means in this case
19:09:44 <luke-jr> maybe close enough I should just finish the review tho
19:11:03 <wumpus> ajonas: I think it's in there mostly to give the discussion there visibility (which is what that colum is for, even if it's not strictly about a concept ACK)
19:11:16 <ariard_> ajonas: actually we could swap it by #19820 first, as any package relay discussions should fall under this one first IMO
19:11:17 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19820 | Transactions propagation design goals · Issue #19820 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:11:49 <aj> wumpus: it's been there a long time now, and don't think there's current progress on it (and maybe better served by the p2p meetings for now anyway?)
19:12:34 <wumpus> I don't mind swapping it with #19820
19:12:35 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19820 | Transactions propagation design goals · Issue #19820 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:12:50 <wumpus> if people agree on that
19:13:12 <aj> sgtm
19:13:50 <wumpus> ok
19:14:11 <wumpus> I think we can go on to the other topics
19:14:35 <wumpus> #topic conducting a large scale usage survey (achow101)
19:14:59 <achow101> I wanted to get some opinions on the feasibility and usefulness of conducting a usage survey
19:15:29 <jonasschnelli> smells after a drama maker. :)
19:15:29 <bitcoin-git> [13bitcoin] 15ariard closed pull request #19147: Document discouragement logic with regards to malicious exploitation (06master...062020-06-doc-banman-infra) 02https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19147
19:15:32 <achow101> the idea for the survey is to get data on how people use Core. particularly, for the wallet, we want to know things like if anyone uses things like zapwallettxes
19:15:40 <jeremyrubin> I think it's a great idea!
19:15:48 <jeremyrubin> I've appreciated your twitter questions
19:16:07 <jeremyrubin> and I've done some similarly; would be cool for it to be a bit more buttoned up with ability to follow up with users
19:16:15 <moneyball> Square Crypto just announced a user research grant to Jamaal who is an experienced research from OMI and IDEO, to exclusively focus on Bitcoin Core, so it seems like that would be a great person to engage on this
19:16:18 <jonasschnelli> I think it's a great idea. Unsure how to execute practically
19:16:25 <wumpus> I was okay with remiving zapwallettxes but I dislike how it seems we're removing all recorvery functionality
19:16:31 <moneyball> His proposal can be found here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d8QND6mGHayOAynt1ywZ1mgca1Ghlt1Rkn7l02Jj2IA/edit
19:16:45 <moneyball> but he is eager to work with Core developers on improving it and making it as impactful as possible
19:16:48 <wumpus> it's clear such things are useful sometimes even if people don't use them a lot day to day
19:16:52 <sipa> moneyball: please wait for topic?
19:17:15 <moneyball> sipa: I am responding to achow's call for a usage survey
19:17:17 <luke-jr> sipa: this is the topic
19:17:29 <sipa> oh, oops!
19:17:31 <moneyball> We now literally have an expert at this :)
19:17:38 <achow101> wumpus: i'm not necessarily trying to remove recovery functionality
19:17:54 <ariard_> moneyball: you should ping folks from blockchain commons, IIRC they have thoughts on how to improve core wallet
19:17:58 <wumpus> in any case, more generally, I don't think doing a survey can hurt
19:18:23 <achow101> but also I think a survey could also get us some useful data for other things
19:18:50 <jeremyrubin> I'm not positive that lack of expertise is the issue. E.g., I'm a published HCI author and I know other people have similar expertise. I think the broader issue is coming up with agreement that the results of such a survey would be actionable.
19:19:28 <nehan> DCI has also been talking to a user research team. I think it can be tricky to design these surveys well, for example so you don't just hear what you want to hear
19:19:34 <moneyball> Ok let me re-state: we have someone who will be dedicated full-time to this for 6 months, so I encourage anyone interested in shaping and influencing his research to connect with him
19:20:00 <moneyball> His email is jamaalmonty [at] gmail.com
19:20:16 <luke-jr> sounds like lots of different people trying to do a survey
19:20:22 <luke-jr> I suggest they all work together :p
19:20:38 <jonasschnelli> Just a little warning: some users don't know what they want (especially when it hits the privacy layer).
19:20:46 <nehan> we have not started anything yet, just offering up information. will ask them to reach out to jamaal!
19:21:03 <jeremyrubin> achow101: I think maybe what might make sense is to come up with some key issues we want to fix but don't know how to fix.
19:21:08 <moneyball> nehan: great!!
19:21:11 <jonasschnelli> Probably also hard to find samples that are representative for "the usergroupe" of Bitcoin Core
19:21:14 <jeremyrubin> it sounds like wallet recovery is a real issue
19:21:14 <luke-jr> I don't know we have a reliable way to contact all or even a good sample of users
19:21:20 <achow101> jeremyrubin: right
19:21:36 <achow101> the kind of data I'm looking for is more of what things are being used
19:21:36 <luke-jr> I expect people who read bitcoincore.org, or the announcements list, etc are the same niches
19:22:03 <achow101> I spoke with Jamaal and he's doing more on user experience stuff which is more subjective
19:22:11 <jeremyrubin> achow101: you know the whole bullet holes on plane wing issue right?
19:22:21 <achow101> jeremyrubin: yes
19:22:24 <jeremyrubin> :)
19:22:29 <jonasschnelli> Yes. UX and feature uses are two different things
19:22:46 <luke-jr> a lot of users haven't upgraded since <0.18 still
19:22:55 <jeremyrubin> I think what might be nice would be to start with a project-wise survey
19:22:56 <luke-jr> (40%)
19:22:59 <achow101> But if we're debating whether to remove e.g. zapwallettxes, it would be nice to know whether people use this
19:23:11 <jeremyrubin> Rather than talking to end-users, start by talking to mid?-users
19:23:20 <jeremyrubin> e.g., LND, BTCPayServer, Coinbase, etc
19:23:32 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: very different kind of users
19:23:35 <jonasschnelli> achow101: how would you get representative samples to acctually use this as a decision base (to remove zap)?
19:23:36 <achow101> other data I'm looking for though is number of UTXOs (within orders of magnitudes, not actual numbers), and wallet versions
19:24:13 <nehan> achow101: is there a list i could share of your questions and thoughts?
19:24:17 <achow101> jonasschnelli: I think the best we would be able to do is to promote the survey in as many places as possible. like put it on reddit, bitcointalk, twitter, etc.
19:24:28 <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: that cluster of users is probably just more useful in early on work at having users who can clearly express what they want v.s. end users where the question becomes more of a UX endeavor IMO
19:24:34 <achow101> nehan: not yet
19:24:39 <jonasschnelli> The survey will probably be anonymous. So its super hard to tell wether one person did fill up 10k forms or 10k users filled out one form.
19:24:44 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: but they'd also already be opening PRs for what they want
19:24:50 <jeremyrubin> That's not true
19:24:53 <sipa> achow101: one issue especially with recovery options is that they're extremely rarely used features to begin with
19:25:08 <sipa> achow101: and even if 99.99% of users never touch them, they are worthwhile
19:25:10 <jonasschnelli> There will always be large questionmarks wether the gathered data is useful due to the nature that we don't do CRM
19:25:11 <achow101> jonasschnelli: yes, that's certainly a problem. I think the best we could do there is to put a captcha and ask people not to be assholes
19:25:23 <sipa> which means you need an extremely large and representative sample
19:25:40 <luke-jr> back when I did the KYC poll thing, it matched Twitter polls pretty closely
19:25:43 <wumpus> sipa: that was also my point, i think a survey is good for some things, but probably not for recovery options
19:25:50 <luke-jr> so I don't think there's a whole lot of effort into skewing polls
19:26:28 <sipa> wumpus: agree
19:26:47 <achow101> wumpus, sipa: I agree that for recovery options, it's not as useful. But asking whether people have heard of the option might be.
19:27:11 <sipa> achow101: agree
19:27:15 <jeremyrubin> You can also make a survey only show a follow up if they check a box that they used  it or lost a wallet
19:27:30 <jeremyrubin> which if you just don't collect enough data on, you ignore it
19:27:39 <wumpus> if it is about a single option, it's likely better to ask it separately on twitter than do a survey, will reach more people
19:27:43 <sipa> "How many BTC have you lost due to unrecoverable wallet.dat files?"
19:27:50 <jeremyrubin> heh
19:28:01 <achow101> I think there would end up being a lot of questions like "have you heard of X?" followed by "If yes, have you ever used X?"
19:28:20 <jeremyrubin> achow101: I think we can probably between some set of people also pay to promote the tweet?
19:28:26 <jeremyrubin> if you want more respondents
19:28:26 <luke-jr> inb4 a bunch of lost bitcoins get recovered as a result of said survey
19:28:28 <nehan> there is also depth vs. breadth: it might be useful to interview 2-3 people who have lost btc to find out what went wrong
19:28:39 <jeremyrubin> but in my experience polls get very high engagement
19:28:44 <jeremyrubin> like usually at least 200 ppl
19:29:09 <jeremyrubin> hey!
19:29:18 <jonasschnelli> If a survey happens,.. i think the form how it's done (google forms, etc.) and what branding, originator/sender is used, privacy in general, etc. is used if very important to prevent people freaking out
19:29:19 <jeremyrubin> Lots of people from the MIT Bitcoin Project lost their wallet.dats
19:29:30 <jeremyrubin> can shoot the participants an email nehan
19:30:07 <achow101> jonasschnelli: that's definitely a concern. I don't think any existing survey sites don't have tracking
19:30:17 <achow101> we'd likely have to run something ourselves
19:30:35 <jonasschnelli> Those details are the reason why I said at the beginning it is probably a "drama maker"
19:30:56 <jeremyrubin> the issue is that then you bias onto people who will visit mysketchypoll.info vs. google forms :)
19:31:09 <achow101> put it on bitcoincore.org
19:31:11 <jonasschnelli> And I bet some BCH morons will script 10k survey submissions just to show off
19:31:16 <gwillen> achow101: it's hard to guarantee anything doesn't have tracking, I have suggested to people that they just fill out google forms over Tor if they care a lot
19:31:18 <achow101> mysketchpoll.bitcoincore.org :)
19:31:22 <sipa> jeremyrubin: lol, i could have predicted that :)
19:31:43 <gleb> blinded proof of ownership to participate? :)
19:31:45 <gwillen> (I guess perhaps some non-google provider might be less likely to give Tor users lots of annoying captchas)
19:32:05 <wumpus> agree w/ regard to drama maker, especially if you ask about people losing money you have to do with some care
19:32:27 <gleb> poodle-style construction may help?  not sure, should re-read it
19:32:35 <jonasschnelli> And maybe you can argue that the most Core powerusers (which we actually want to sample) are generally not filling out surveys.
19:32:36 <jeremyrubin> I think I'll re-make my suggestion that rather than doing an initial broad scope survey, we should build some experience on a couple smaller scale ones
19:32:38 <ariard_> gleb: it's 2020, just ask them to pay a LN invoice :p
19:32:41 <wumpus> at least for a public survery, if you're just going to interview a few people it's less of an issue
19:32:48 <jeremyrubin> And then leverage that learning for future work
19:32:55 <achow101> gleb: that would severely bias our sample to people willing to jump through the hoops
19:33:16 <wumpus> heh, getting reliable statistics in 2020
19:33:18 <instagibbs> what's the budget for this? :)
19:33:21 <jonasschnelli> maybe it's best done outside of the core "official" channels (bitcoincore.org) and best put under your own umbrella (achow, twitter, your website)?
19:33:31 <sipa> put it on the blockchain
19:33:33 <jonasschnelli> instagibbs: budget is always 0
19:33:43 * jeremyrubin I lost my wallet.dat because the blocks were too small to upload it.
19:33:47 <achow101> I could setup a google doc where we discuss what and how to ask questions.
19:33:51 <instagibbs> jonasschnelli, I am personal friends with survey researchers/professionals :P
19:34:02 <nehan> achow101: +1
19:34:35 <achow101> instagibbs: My budget is like $20
19:34:48 <jonasschnelli> should be enough for 1m of a VM
19:34:49 <instagibbs> s/friends/wife/
19:34:53 <instagibbs> I'll sak her
19:34:54 <instagibbs> ask
19:35:11 <jonasschnelli> don't sak her!
19:35:11 <luke-jr>19:35:22 <luke-jr> instagibbs: you are a survey researcher's wife?
19:35:22 <jeremyrubin> Those responsible for the survey have been sacked.
19:35:31 <instagibbs> luke-jr, i no english sorry
19:35:38 <luke-jr> XD
19:35:53 <jeremyrubin> Anyways -- I think there's broad conceptually agreement on a survey achow101?
19:35:56 <achow101> jeremyrubin: welp
19:36:10 <achow101> yeah, i'll come up with a slightly more concerte proposal
19:36:18 <jonatack> data point of one: i don't fill out surveys ever
19:36:29 <jonasschnelli> achow101: thanks!
19:36:30 <sdaftuar> by induction...
19:36:33 <jonatack> due to google forms, tracking, etc.
19:36:46 <jeremyrubin> jonatack: you just answered a survey on taking surveys
19:36:51 <luke-jr> Sometimes I do if they're quick
19:36:56 <jeremyrubin> So I think maybe a good next step would be to make a google doc and just let people add questions they want asked?
19:36:56 <luke-jr> if they say 15 minutes, I just close it
19:37:04 <jeremyrubin> Then trim it down into something more concrete
19:37:14 <achow101> yeah
19:37:37 <jeremyrubin> if it helps: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gGP9CmOiM80JmNPiDrTL6dgP6fVVusDuEqYQ9cBJz5E/edit
19:37:42 <sipa> "This survey will end when block $(($HEIGHT+1)) is found. Good luck!"
19:37:44 <jeremyrubin> anyone can suggest edit dump questions here
19:37:48 <instagibbs> luke-jr, 15 minutes is a prety long survey
19:37:52 <luke-jr> sipa: lol
19:38:01 <instagibbs> in paper terms, roughly 15 pages of checkboxes and stuff
19:38:16 <luke-jr> instagibbs: I wouldn't know, since I don't go through them :P
19:39:50 <achow101> end of topic I guess
19:40:03 <wumpus> #topic Bitcoin Design Community and efforts around the Bitcoin Core project (moneyball)
19:40:13 <moneyball> For context, back in June Square Crypto announced the formation of the Bitcoin Design community https://medium.com/@squarecrypto/bringing-together-the-bitcoin-design-community-b89e5fbe080f
19:40:21 <moneyball> We had an amazing response with over 500 designers and creatives from around the world joining the community. Some of them have an interest in contributing to the Bitcoin Core project.
19:40:38 <moneyball> I already mentioned Jamaal's project above which is one touchpoint with the Core project.
19:40:54 <moneyball> There is also a group of people interested in helping with the GUI design. They've formed a Slack channel #bitcoin-core-gui in the Design Community Slack (http://www.bitcoindesigners.org/). They're also holding biweekly video calls to discuss issues (eg https://github.com/BitcoinDesign/Meta/issues/13).
19:41:02 <moneyball> An example of improving the GUI is https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/issues/81
19:41:14 <moneyball> If interested, feel free to join these and engage. Note that there is not an expectation Core contributors must join these discussions, and as I state here (https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/79#issuecomment-686613427), any formal proposed changes and discussion should occur on GitHub per the existing process.
19:41:35 <moneyball> I think this is great news to have designers and researchers interested in helping the Core project! I am sure there will be a few areas to improve as we add new types of contributors, so don't be afraid to provide feedback or offer suggestions.
19:41:39 <moneyball> Comments?
19:42:14 <luke-jr> moneyball: why can't they use IRC, or at least the existing Core slack?
19:43:39 <wumpus> moneyball: great to hear
19:43:46 <jonasschnelli> Yes. Great to hear.
19:43:51 <moneyball> They could, but most designers are not on IRC, but we are working to get them more comfortable with GitHub, which I think is going well.
19:44:06 <wumpus> getting people to use IRC is kind of out of scope I think
19:44:39 <sdaftuar> personally i'm glad we're getting thoughtful newcomers to contribute, sounds great!
19:44:46 <wumpus> it's got to be more about what is being discussed than where, anyway
19:45:06 <jeremyrubin> I think one question I have is the extent to which it makes sense to, assuming we have this massive influx of design talent, to work on the existing GUI or to gut-rennovate it. Not sure what's in scope
19:45:09 <instagibbs> provided larger scale coordination is done at github level I don't think it should cause many issues
19:45:10 <jonasschnelli> One first think that pops into my head when I hear designers working on Core: how hard will it be to adapt a flexible design with our native platform Qt approach
19:45:11 <luke-jr> moneyball: they can join IRC just as easily as joining some new Slack
19:45:22 <jeremyrubin> jonasschnelli: +1 similar q
19:45:51 <wumpus> that's why QML was brought up, it's much more flexible in that regard
19:45:54 <hebasto> jonasschnelli: by moving to QML?
19:46:01 <jonasschnelli> So whatever comes out of the design process,... implementing it will be a challenge.
19:46:05 <jonasschnelli> I agree with QML.
19:46:15 <wumpus> there's only so much you can do with widgets
19:46:18 <jonasschnelli> Which _is_ hard to switch towards
19:46:42 <jonasschnelli> Also,... should the GUI still respect color patterns of the OS (dark mode, etc.)?
19:46:50 <wumpus> someone already did some stuff with QML and bitcoin core in a PR for android
19:47:09 <hebasto> is it acceptable to have hybrid (widgets + QML) binaries at somepoint?
19:47:11 <wumpus> #16883
19:47:14 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16883 | WIP: Qt: add QML based mobile GUI by icota · Pull Request #16883 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:47:19 <luke-jr> the GUI low-level design (colours, widgets, etc) should be entirely determined by the OS
19:47:20 <jonasschnelli> I think QML could be the right direction. Just,... that not an easy step by step transition probably
19:47:31 <jeremyrubin> How far along is the splitting of wallet process stuff?
19:47:45 <wumpus> I'm not sure they can be combined in one UI (or whether that makes sense)
19:48:04 <jonasschnelli> Maybe the design process leads to a new UI...
19:48:10 <jeremyrubin> Is it feasible that e.g. different GUIs can link to the same intefaces?
19:48:16 <wumpus> in any case we'd need someone that knows how to use QML
19:48:38 <sipa> luke-jr: you must hate websites :)
19:48:58 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: yes, maybe eventually
19:49:04 <luke-jr> sipa: I used Konqueror as long as it was viable ;)
19:49:12 <wumpus> I think starting with a "mobile GUI" for core would be good
19:49:21 <wumpus> just leave the current one for desktop for now
19:49:38 <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: that would be impossible for designers to work with "(colours, widgets, etc) should be entirely determined by the OS".
19:49:42 <jeremyrubin> that makes sense to me too; and is something familiar to designers these days (mobile first!)
19:49:50 <yanmaani> as a user, I really hate QML
19:49:53 <wumpus> which is also the PR I linked
19:49:57 <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: then they're bad designers… :/
19:50:02 <yanmaani> I really like it when it has a native look, like Core or, arguably better, Electrum
19:50:03 <jonasschnelli> yanmaani: on what platform? Desktop?
19:50:10 <wumpus> qt widgets is more or less unusable on mobile platforms so it's the first application anyway
19:50:14 <yanmaani> Monero has a QML gui, and that looks horrible
19:50:21 <yanmaani> jonasschnelli: yeah
19:50:32 <yanmaani> mobile is different, but nobody (I hope) runs a full node on their phone
19:50:35 <luke-jr> yanmaani: does QML mean non-native? :/
19:50:46 <wumpus> people definitely run full nodes on their phones and tablets these days
19:50:46 <jonasschnelli> QML means non native widgets
19:50:48 <yanmaani> luke-jr: Think of QML like knock-off HTML for GUI development
19:50:59 <yanmaani> Try using the Monero GUI, it looks like a website or something
19:51:02 <luke-jr> NACK QML then :<
19:51:17 <wumpus> this is not going to lead anywhere
19:51:19 <jonasschnelli> QT provides some QML basic widgets. But they don't feel like your OSes widgets. Similar to using web-based applications like slack, etc.
19:51:29 <yanmaani> I don't have much clout here but I think you should definitely stay native
19:51:40 <luke-jr> wumpus: if the direction is bad, best to not follow that lead?
19:52:06 <jonasschnelli> I guess there are good and bad native desktop apps as they are good and bad QML desktop apps. It probably depends on how it's made
19:52:30 <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: by definition, if it doesn't use native widgets, it is bad. So if you're saying QML means non-native widgets, they are necessarily all bad?
19:52:41 <sipa> luke-jr: that's your opinion....
19:52:42 <wumpus> this is not going to lead anywhere? start with a mobile GUI
19:52:43 <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: that's only your opinion
19:52:50 <jonasschnelli> agree.
19:52:51 <moneyball> these are the types of discussions that i'd love to have designers engage with existing Core contributors. discussion on GitHub is one common ground. if there is interest from Core devs to join the biweekly video calls, already hebasto and a few others do, and you're very welcome to that.
19:52:56 <wumpus> leave the current one for desktop for now
19:53:11 <jonasschnelli> I just repeat my first answer to this topic: [21:46:00]  <jonasschnelli> So whatever comes out of the design process,... implementing it will be a challenge.
19:53:16 <sipa> luke-jr: i'd say leave the UI decisions up to those working on it
19:53:18 <yanmaani> well it is a bit rude to have the designers have their meetings in Slack and Zoom and whatnot
19:53:19 <wumpus> when it has existed for a while we can at some point maybe look at QML for desktop, but I don't want to make that decision now, at all
19:53:32 <yanmaani> and then present it, take it or leave it, with some amount of pressure, to the devs
19:53:37 <wumpus> also, just build whatever you want to build and think is useful, I'm kind of tired of this discussion
19:53:38 <jeremyrubin> When someone is doing work you aren't paying for you really can't demand it be on your terms
19:53:43 <instagibbs> yanmaani, I didn't get this at all from the comments
19:53:48 <yanmaani> it seems like it would make an atmosphere with a bit of bad communication
19:53:52 <luke-jr> sipa: I work on UI
19:53:58 <yanmaani> it seems like it would be better if everyone used the same platform
19:53:59 <luke-jr> sipa: I also use UI
19:54:02 <jonasschnelli> we don't have the data points for a decition. Someone need to come up with a live running example
19:54:15 <sipa> luke-jr: yes, i don't mean to say that excludes you!
19:54:24 <luke-jr> i c
19:54:25 <achow101> https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/topics-ui.html#comparison seems to indicate that QML can do the native styling
19:54:29 <sipa> luke-jr: but i don't think it's something to work out here
19:54:42 <moneyball> yanmaani: I think you misinterpret. I explicitly said above and in my GitHub comment that I agree with luke-jr, we shouldn't require Core developers to go elsewhere for formal discussion.
19:54:43 <wumpus> native styling means nothing on mobile platforms anywy, it's fine to start without that
19:55:09 <yanmaani> native styling, maybe. It's still notorious for being very sluggish, but that might just be a stereotype
19:55:14 <luke-jr> wumpus: Android doesn't have native widgets? Pretty sure it does
19:55:18 <jonasschnelli> as for moneyball: I think it is important to tell the designers that the _implementation_ of it will raise tons of questions. Just that they are aware that this project is different to the corporate world.
19:55:20 <yanmaani> wumpus: Do app GUIs have much in common with desktop GUIs?
19:55:23 <moneyball> However, there is nothing preventing people from using other mediums to communicate with each other. We shouldn't prevent designers from using, say Figma.
19:55:24 <wumpus> luke-jr: yes but no one uses them
19:55:25 <yanmaani> They're all profoundly different platforms
19:55:38 <luke-jr> wumpus: most apps do in my experience
19:55:42 <yanmaani> moneyball: Right, but then the designers will be discussing without talking to the core devs
19:55:49 <luke-jr> wumpus: I think the only exception I know of is Pokemon GO
19:55:51 <wumpus> in any case, qt widgets doesn't really work on android ...
19:56:00 <luke-jr>19:56:09 <wumpus> qml does
19:56:21 <yanmaani> I mean, my worry is that you might end up with a website that looks "designed by designers" (see: angular/react monstrosities) but is horribly slow
19:56:28 <yanmaani> rather than a nice HTML site with a small amount of CSS
19:56:37 <jonasschnelli> yanmaani: we all share that worry
19:56:41 <moneyball> yanmaani: There has been effort put forth to have Core devs and designers talking to each other. It is already happening. That said, I'm sure we can improve even more so.
19:56:43 <yanmaani> uh I mean app
19:56:46 <yanmaani> not website
19:56:53 <yanmaani> uh I mean program, not app
19:57:00 <luke-jr> maybe designers should make image files and coders do the implementation?
19:57:06 <wumpus> QML is definitely not 'horribly slow'
19:57:18 <jonasschnelli> the opposite
19:57:25 <wumpus> it's very well optimized for animations and such
19:57:31 <luke-jr> The following list summarizes what you can do with Qt for Android:
19:57:31 <instagibbs> It's a lost cause to get everyone on IRC, ship sailed a long time ago. Provided typical Github workflow is followed, there's no issue
19:57:32 <luke-jr> Run Widget-based and QML applications on a device or an emulator.
19:57:34 <luke-jr> wumpus: ^
19:57:35 <yanmaani> That seems like a reasonable idea. It would probably make more sense for designers to try and do higher-level stuff
19:57:46 <yanmaani> things like "is this workflow broken", "does it make sense to order the tabs in this way"
19:57:51 <wumpus> it's mainly used in kiosks and inflight entertainment and industrial devices etc
19:58:00 <wumpus> usually some ARM core
19:58:02 <yanmaani> wumpus: Yeah but compare Monero's GUI to Electrum or whatever
19:58:03 <hebasto> QML supports hardware acceleration
19:58:07 * luke-jr would like to see what Bitcoin Core looks like on Android today
19:58:09 <luke-jr> GUI*
19:58:10 <yanmaani> It's still extremely big and bloated
19:58:11 <jeremyrubin> if you get the designers on IRC, they will leave core, and then work on a more pretty IRC client
19:58:19 <sipa> jeremyrubin: hahaha
19:58:23 <wumpus> native UI is also 'big and bloated'
19:58:24 <luke-jr> hebasto: so does widgets…
19:58:24 <jeremyrubin> so let's keep them focused on the task at hand
19:58:27 <instagibbs> wait... that sounds great jeremyrubin
19:58:31 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: lol
19:58:46 <wumpus> did you look at windowing toolkits recently
19:58:52 <sipa> irc is supposed to be ugly! *plays with beard*
19:58:55 <instagibbs> everyone should tmux into their IRC machine or log off
19:59:17 <sipa> instagibbs: screen, ffs
19:59:27 <hebasto> luke-jr: sure?
19:59:35 <sdaftuar> instagibbs: i think we call it slack?
19:59:56 <moneyball> yanmaani: it is unrealistic to have everyone use the same platform. designers use tools like figma. can you imagine if designers demanded developers to use figma instead of git and whatever your favorite editor is?
20:00:06 <luke-jr> hebasto: yes, it's annoying tbh
20:00:07 <wumpus> in any case, if the designers don't come up with something better then we can always say no, but I think rejecting any kind of improvement in advance is bad
20:00:15 <sipa> wumpus: +1
20:00:19 <jeremyrubin> moneyball: designers should use DCC whiteboard only
20:00:21 <moneyball> at minimum GitHub will be the common communication platform
20:00:22 <luke-jr> hebasto: simple GUIs shouldn't need hw acceleration
20:00:32 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: +1
20:00:34 <wumpus> this is how you get stuck
20:00:36 <yanmaani> moneyball: Sure, but then you end up in a situation where there's almost no communication
20:00:39 <sdaftuar> it seems presumptuous to tell other volunteers on this project how to work and collaborate with others
20:00:43 <hebasto> luke-jr: agree
20:00:45 <jeremyrubin> sdaftuar: +1
20:00:46 <yanmaani> they just lock themselves in a room and present a design
20:00:57 <yanmaani> Compare bitcoin.org anno 2011 and today
20:01:04 <wumpus> yanmaani: please...
20:01:16 <luke-jr> hebasto: by default, Qt Widgets uses OpenGL
20:01:18 <moneyball> yanmaani: this is not the intention. i am genuinely reaching out here to find ways to avoid your concern
20:01:20 <wumpus> meeting time is over
20:01:24 <jeremyrubin> (btw for anyone connecting over Tor, please do not accept DCC chats -- easy way to dox yourself)
20:01:28 <sdaftuar> moneyball: thanks for sharing this!
20:01:37 <wumpus> moneyball: yes, thanks for working on this
20:01:46 <jonatack> +1
20:01:49 <jonasschnelli> moneyball: thanks!
20:01:52 <yanmaani> moneyball: Well, you would want some sort of neutral ground. Like a phpBB forum, or maybe github is good enough.
20:01:54 <jeremyrubin> excited to see what comes out!
20:02:00 <yanmaani> And slack or keybase or whatever bridged to IRC
20:02:07 <instagibbs> achow101, sorry, wife's company only does contracts north of $20k. Can you 1000x your offer?
20:02:10 <sipa> yanmaani: "neutral ground"? is this a war?
20:02:28 <sipa> yes, IRC bridging may be useful
20:02:41 <wumpus> #endmeeting